The following is a transcript of the Bill Good Show which aired on CKNW Radio (980 AM), from 10:00 a.m. til 10:30 a.m. on Friday, January 16, 1998.
G - Bill GOOD, CKNW Radio talk-show host
K - Senator Colin KENNY
Callers in to the program are simply numbered (1, 2, 3 & 4)
G - The fight against tobacco companies escalates. The B.C. government has launched court action to try to get the tobacco companies to pay more to compensate government for the costs of health care. Today, in the news, a Vancouver smoking bylaw stands. The B.C. Court of Appeal has dismissed a challenge by the Restaurant and Food Services Association. The B.C. Court of Appeal has ruled the bylaw does discriminate against certain establishments that serve food, but the court says that doesn't mean it violates Vancouver's city charter. The high court says the smoking bylaw is a political compromise. Smoking is permitted in pubs and bars, but not in most restaurants. The association, representing 1200 restaurants, challenged the bylaw. The group claimed restaurants are losing business to pubs and bars, where smoking is permitted -- and that probably is true -- but they still lose their day in court. Senator Colin Kenny is a Liberal Senator from Ontario, in B.C. today promoting his Private Members' bill -- the Tobacco Industry Responsibility Act. (Then, to Kenny) Senator Kenny, good morning.
K - Good morning, Bill. Thank you for having me on.
G - What is the essence of your bill? What are you trying to accomplish?
K - Well Bill, first, let's talk about the problem -- then let's talk about what the government's doing -- and then I'll get into the bill very quickly. The problem that we're facing is that smoking amongst young people has risen to 30% in the last couple of years. 40,000 Canadians die from smoke-related diseases every year -- and it costs Canadians 3 billion dollars in direct health costs -- and 7 billion dollars in indirect costs. Now that 40,000 deaths a year that I was talking about -- that's like filling up B.C. Place -- and having everybody in B.C. Place die -- boom -- just because they smoke. Or it's like having two 747s crash every week, all year....
G - ....and if that happened, there would be an outcry -- an investigation -- and every effort on earth would be made to stop it.
K - You bet. And the government would be spending a fortune to try and do it. Now, right now, our government -- my government -- is spending a total of $20 million a year on anti-tobacco programs. Ten million to teach corner store operators how to figure out who's under 18 and who's over 18, okay? And $10 million on youth education. Now, $20 million against 40,000 deaths -- it's just not right -- it's not proportionate to the problem.
G - Not to mention the money the tobacco companies are spending promoting their products.
K - Not to mention the money the tobacco companies are spending promoting their products -- and not to mention the fact that the government is taking in $2.03 billion in taxes from tobacco every year -- and it's not going back into fighting tobacco addiction, it's going into general revenues.
G - A couple of the arguments I hear against the immediate cessation, if you will, of tobacco sales and tobacco promotion. Sports and cultural groups will suffer terribly if they no longer have the support of the tobacco companies. The people who grow tobacco -- people in Ontario....
K - ....Yup....
G - ....tobacco farmers don't have anything else to do.
K - Okay, well this brings me to my bill. First of all, we've established there's a huge problem out there. Secondly, we've established the federal government isn't doing enough to deal with it. And that's why I'm bringing forward this piece of Private Members' legislation. It's the Tobacco Industry Responsibility Act -- and it introduces a levy of 50 cents a carton. Only 50 cents a carton -- which isn't enough to start smuggling again. If you recall, smuggling was a big problem a couple of years ago. Well, my friends in the police force tell me that 50 cents won't precipitate more smuggling. But 50 cents a carton will generate $120 million a year.
G - Money that you want to target.
K - Money that I want to target -- and that's why it will go into a levy and into a trust fund. It's not going to get lost in the general wash of government revenues -- it's going to be focussed at specific targets. Now the main target is kids under the age of 18. Nobody makes a decision to smoke at 37 or 45 or 53. Frankly, adults aren't my concern. I figure adults have enough information to make up their own minds -- they can decide if they want to poison themselves with tobacco....
G - Most kids start somewhere around 13, 14, 15....
K - 10!
G - 10, 11, 12....13, 14, 15.
K - That's right. So we're talking about a program that's community-based, run by people who aren't part of government -- a separate board, a separate foundation -- and we're talking about having the money dedicated so it can come into the community here, into places like the YMCA, YWCA, programs in the schools, help the Cancer Society, help Heart and Stroke, help the Lung Society. I was out last night with a group called AIRSPACE -- help folks like them combat tobacco. Now, it's a really insidious problem -- kids smoke for all sorts of reasons. I mean, some smoke because they see a movie star they like, some smoke just to irritate their parents, some smoke because of peer pressure, some smoke -- this is the worst one -- some smoke to stay thin! We had witnesses appear before us last year when our committee was dealing with C-71, the Tobacco Act, who went through a whole range of issues -- and it's clear that no one single program will solve the problem -- there's no magic bullet. What you need to have is a whole lot of programs, right across the country, run locally, with community input -- and they will succeed. The last thing we need is the federal government coming with a 'talk down' program -- you know, "I'm from Ottawa. I'm here to help you." -- that's the last thing we need. So, the first $60 million is targeted directly at youth smoking. Then there's $50 million that's set aside to help those sports and culture organizations that you were talking about, that are being cut off as a result of C-71.
G - Ironically, they're the biggest defenders of tobacco today, because they see their events at risk.
K - They are the main lobbyists for tobacco and their events very much are at risk -- and the problem is that C-71 only gave them 19 months to find alternative sources of sponsorship. And what my bill does is it gives them 5 years. We start off with $50 million and then it goes down by 20% a year -- so the second year, it's $40 million, third year, it's $30 million, right down -- and after 5 years, they wouldn't get any more money. But it takes time to find new sponsors to replace the tobacco companies. You can't just walk up and say, "Hey, Royal Bank, give me the money!" or "Hey, General Motors, give me the money!" You've got to build a relationship, so my bill will give these people 5 years, but we'll put pressure on them every year, okay, because it'll decrease by 20% each year. Same is true with farmers. Farmers are caught in a bind and, what my bill has is, it has $10 million for farmers -- again, decreasing by 20% a year. You know, for a farmer growing tobacco, you can't just suddenly switch to tomatoes -- you need to have a contract from Heinz. You want to switch to cucumbers? You need to have a contract from Bic. You want to switch to grapes? Takes 3 years to grow them. Apples -- five. Ginseng takes seven. It's not easy for the farmers to get off, so there's $10 million for them, that gradually diminishes over 5 years, to zero -- and then we'll have $120 million that we can focus entirely on youth.
G - Quick question. Why are you doing this? You're a Liberal Senator from Ontario. You have a majority government. You have a Prime Minister, a Health Minister, a whole bunch of MPs from Ontario. Yet this Private Members' bill is coming from the Upper House -- coming from the Senate. Why?
K - Yeah, we're supposed to be asleep (much laughter). I'm awake, I'm here. I'm involved in this because this is the number one problem facing Canada in terms of preventable (sic) health. I've been to my Minister of Health about it. I've offered him the bill -- he's got other priorities right now. I think the government's priorities should be focused more on smoking, but in terms of preventable deaths in Canada, this is the number one preventable death....the number one preventable disease. You know, we have 40,000 people dying of smoking-related illnesses. And if you compare that to traffic accidents, which includes drunk driving, only 4,000 people die a year from traffic accidents, but 40,000 die from smoking-related diseases.
G - Your calls to Senator Colin Kenny, Liberal Senator from Ontario, promoting his Tobacco Industry Responsibility Act. 280-0491. Toll-free, 1-800-667-0946.
Commercial break
G - You're with Bill Good on CKNW. Senator Colin Kenny is my guest, a Liberal Senator from Ontario, promoting a Private Members' bill, the Tobacco Industry Responsibility Act. You've heard what he's had to say -- I'm interested in your calls -- questions or comments to him. (to caller 1) Good morning.
1 - Hello.
G - Yes, go ahead.
1 - I just want to say, I'm 43 years old and I started smoking when I was 15. I've tried to quit smoking several times and I just really resent the fact like, "Adults have all kinds of choices." We're talking about a really powerful addiction. There's not support in this country, either on the pharmacare program, to claim patches, if that's what you're using -- and you're treated like a second-class citizen. I don't want to smoke -- right now, I'm on day 12 of not smoking, but I'm having great difficulty, because it has its consequences in work and other places. And I just think that, you know, if there's not some programs targeted at adults getting off of cigarets, in a really positive way, then we are going to have more and more health care costs. So I just want to make that point, because I'm just really tired of adults being left out.
G - Caller, just let me ask you one question though. How expensive is the patch, compared to the cost of cigarets?
1 - Well they're roughly about the same cost but I mean if you're talking about an incentive to people....
G - I hear you, but I was just asking, because the Health Minister threw that argument out at me last week.
1 - Yah, I just don't see any of the supports that are in place. You know, if I have an alcohol or a drug abuse addiction, there's all kinds of treatment programs. But there's nothing, really, for people who are addicted to cigarets.
G - Senator.
K - Well, I've got a lot of sympathy for the lady, there's no question about it. We're targeting this bill at young people because we think that that's the key area to focus on. Secondly, I have to say that because of the nature of the levy, what we're really doing is we're taking the tobacco industry's words and we're using it against them. The tobacco industry appeared before Parliament last year -- and they said that they were prepared to do anything they possibly could to help young people get off of cigarets. They repeated that before us 5 or 6 times -- and so we're helping them be good to their word. We're going to take 120 million bucks out of their pockets -- and we're going to use it to stop them from going after young people.
G - 280-0491. (to caller 2) Good morning.
2 - Good morning.
G - Hi.
2 - I would like to congratulate Senator Kenny for his initiative and I'm sure millions of Canadians will applaud his initiative, but a lot of us would like to know how best we can exert some kind of support. Does this come to a vote in the Senate? Or does it go directly to the House of Commons for a vote? In other words, who do we lobby -- the Senators or the MPs or whoever? Could the Senator please explain the process so that we hit the right buttons?
K - Yes Sir, I'd be really glad to, because I can't do this by myself. There's absolutely no question that this only works if the public gets behind it. My big fear -- my huge fear -- is that we've all become inert to the impact of smoking -- that people just don't care any more. And I'm out here in British Columbia and I'm talking to Bill and I'm talking to you today because I think we've got to make this a front-page issue. And your question is very much to the point. Without a broad base of public support, without people like yourself, Sir, writing to your local Member of Parliament, telling your local Member of Parliament that you want to see some action. Now, you've got a Cabinet Minister in this town called Hedy Fry. She's a Medical Doctor -- and she's a Cabinet Minister. And if people from Vancouver....
2 - ....she doesn't like to rock the boat too much though....
K - ....well, I think that if she hears from electors in this town -- and if you write to the other Members of Parliament, from all stripes in this town, that will have a huge impact. Nothing affects a politician more than hearing from your own electors directly. You call them, you write them -- you don't even need a stamp. Just say, 'Parliament Buildings, Ottawa, Canada.' Yes, there is a vote in the Senate. You've got some Senators out here. You've got Pat Carney, you've got Ray Perrault. They need to hear from you too. Send them cards, send them letters. No harm writing the Prime Minister, no harm writing Alan Rock. But the key ones are the ones that live in your community, because they need your votes.
G - 280-0491. (to caller 3) Good morning.
3 - Good morning. To the Senator, you just mentioned the name Alan Rock -- and possibly Mr. Rock has the key to the whole thing, because he spent years working out how to abolish firearms ownership. Now, if you transfer the regulations that he has drawn up for firearms into tobacco possession, it would probably wipe out most of the lawful tobacco. As an example, a 'tobacco possession certificate' required for everyone, with a strong examination and test of your knowledge before you're issued it. You must have it in your possession to have tobacco on your person.
G - This is delicious.
3 - And then, you go on from there, Bill, remembering that the government's prepared to spend up to a billion dollars in the hope of reducing 1,400 firearms deaths -- which is a terrible number -- but then the government is prepared to spend nothing to reduce the 40,000 tobacco deaths. And, as for compensation for those persons who are growing this noxious weed, again I point out that the government has no plans to compensate the 50% of the firearms dealers that are going out of business this year. Could the Senator consider reading the firearms bills -- and all those regulations that the Senate considered this month, on the control of firearms -- and transfer them immediately into controlling tobacco products?
G - Senator Kenny.
K - Well Bill, you've got a terrific audience here -- and this gentleman's got a delightful sense of humor. And he's half tongue-in-cheek and he's half serious about it -- or he'll probably tell me he's all serious about it. The fundamental point that you're making, Sir, is correct. The priorities that we have in Ottawa right now aren't right -- and that's why I'm out here, trying to change the priorities back in Ottawa. And I'm coming to Vancouver to appeal to people like you -- and to people who are listening to this program -- to write their Member of Parliament and say, "Get your priorities straight." Tobacco is the main killer of Canadians -- and we've got to do something to stop it.
G - That said, I would not be surprised to see you leafing through the firearms bill prior to your next meeting with Mr. Rock.
K - (laughter)
G - (to caller 4) Go ahead, from Victoria.
4 - Hi. Senator Kenny, that's a great foundation that you're planning for. I think it'll be very successful -- and I urge everyone to write to their local politicians and work towards it.
G - It's not often that a Senator -- or a politician of any stripe -- comes on this program and gets almost unanimous support.
4 - Well, I'll tell you, I'm calling as a 50-year-old guy who spent just a horrible childhood with smokers in my household -- and I've found out since that children of smokers are about 200% to 400% more likely to get allergies and asthma than children of non-smokers.
G - Did you ever smoke?
4 - I became a smoker for 32 years -- and I quit 7 years ago. But what bothers me is that I was hospitalized about 5 times as a result of my parents' smoking. And I'm wondering if there's any provision for this foundation to have the latitude of working with educational programs to let parents know that there are about 2.8 million children in Canada exposed to Environmental Tobacco Smoke every day.
G - Senator.
K - Absolutely, Sir. There are -- and that's exactly the sort of approach that we're looking for. In your case, I hope you get in touch with David Anderson. He's the Minister from Victoria -- and there are a variety of other Members of Parliament who are on the Island who need to hear about it. But yes, the foundation would have the capacity to communicate with parents. It would focus on the dangers of second-hand smoke. It would tell people how they are harming their kids day after day, if they're smoking around them. You're absolutely right -- and that's what we're after.
G - I thank you for being here. (then, to radio audience) Next, the fight over development in Langley...